Why I think RDR2 isn't fun

Having finished RDR2 I'm just baffled how such a poorly designed game can get so high praise. So I just felt like I had to write a little post about it (which I pretty much never do). The biggest issue is that the game just isn't fun to play. Here are the reasons why imo (trying to keep it short :) ).

Movement

Every game designer has understood since forever that:

• Standing still behind cover taking pot shots = boring
• Moving around the stage = fun

When I say everyone, I mean everyone but R*. To achieve this you need to give the player the right tools and design levels/enemies to support it. Example of tools could be to run smoothly, climb objects quickly, slide down slopes, swing with ropes, zip-lines etc. R* just doesn't give a shit. You can sloooowly climb ladders in RDR2, that's it. When it comes to enemy design you need them to punish you for standing still, but aim poorly when you move. Again R* doesn't care. Levels should have more powerful stuff if you push forward to incentivize movement. And be designed for a more expanded movement set. But no.

Snappy controls

For a shooter to feel good a couple of things are important when it comes to controls. First you don't want to lock the player into overly long tedious animations. Secondly you want common inputs to be just a tap away. R* violates both. Looting... wtf were they thinking? Every action just feels like you are moving through syrup. Why do you have to go to the weapon wheel to access melee weapons and "grenades"? Are they serious? These things need to be at your finger tips.

Gameplay is very one note

It's tedious when a game, especially a massive OW, is just one note. It's way more fun when you can go between modes of gameplay like say combat and stealth. I understand RDR2 technically has stealth, but it is embarrassing how poorly executed it is. We have a bow, throwing knives and stealth kills. But we never get to use it freely. Only when R* wants us to and then they decide how we tackle the situation kill by kill. No chance for planning or creativity, the things which makes stealth fun.

No room for creativity in the missions

Mission design is like what games like Assassin's Creed used to be back in 2012. You do what R* wants you to do at every turn, or you get punished by "desynchronization".

Pointless progression

In most games you start out weak. Then as you progress you become stronger which allows you to take on tougher foes/or situations. In RDR2 this loop is completely broken. You can beat everything the games throw at you with the starting load out. All these tedious, tedious ways you have to level up are ultimately completely pointless because the challenge never ramps up. Why can't there be some things that are too hard to tackle in the beginning so you have actual goals? But no.

So what do you think? Did you have fun with RDR2? For me this is the last R* game I will get in a loooong time.

For me it's mainly your first two points, the poor controls. I wish their later games were quick and snappy, like Max Payne 3. I know they want their open world games to be authentic, but it's really overdone. Their games just aren't fun anymore.

Shooting is fine.

My only complaint is everything is so slow. Walking, Running and Horse riding all need a speed increase.

The game aims for realism, but like you said, everything is moving in slow motion syrup.

Entering a camp and forcing my character to walk like a 90 year old grandpa is jarring. And frustrating.

And the fast travel sucks in this game. Make it better. I shouldn’t have to travel 10 minutes online to do a mission.

I wish it was on PC so we could mod out mist of the annoying gameplay crap.

@Sushiglutton:

And here's what I disagree with you on:

* Standing behind cover taking pot shots is fundamental to 3rd person shooters.

* You can still move around the environment during combat.

* You can use stealth with knives and bow and arrows at any given time.

*You have plenty of creativity through most missions except for the ones that are centered on stealth.

-The only thing that I agree with you on is the level progression feeling pointless. But even then, it's optional and you don't HAVE to focus on it. The rest of your complaints about it feeling slow just goes to the game focusing on realism. And RDR2 does that beautifully and that's what we love about it.

the game certainly moves at its own pace. if you can't get into it, then I can imagine being quite frustrated by it.

even though its one of my favorite games ever I don't disagree with any of the TC's points. except for maybe progression... its just that the progression comes from the story and not the mechanics, which again is a fair criticism.

Probably why I think GTA4/5 sucks.

@ezekiel43 " For me it's mainly your first two points, the poor controls. I wish their later games were quick and snappy, like Max Payne 3. I know they want their open world games to be authentic, but it's really overdone. Their games just aren't fun anymore."

Rockstar PS2 era>>>>>PS3/4?

i kinda agree with most points. I do wish missions were more varied.

all in all RDR2 is still one of the best games I've ever played

@Sushiglutton: good points, agree with them all.

i defended the controls on this forum soon after release. but i'll admit i was wrong. you can customise them to be more responsive than the default which helps early on. but as you go deeper into the game, the environments you're in become more confined and the need for precise controls becomes much more important.

they're just too lethargic, and the constant wrestling of control from you by the game as it overrides the defaults when you do things like walk into camp becomes insufferable. at first i found it quite immersive, but i admit at the time i was so blown away by the incredible detail, lighting and general visuals of the game world that i was a bit distracted. as time went on and i set my graphics whore glasses to the side i started to see the controls as ok, then annoying then utterly infuriating.

and the story suffers from gta iv syndrome. as niko made his way through the criminal hierarchy he was always just a glorified errand boy. he didn't actually progress in any meaningful way. he just moved from underworld figure to underworld figure, the missions moved to another part of the map and not much else changed. same in rdr2.

i had lots of little niggles with the game. the ultra linear, practically on rails missions juxtaposed against the huge open world was jarring. interacting with the world was fiddly. the snap to cover action was far too eager and often misread player intent, plus other stuff... but i still think rdr2 is a very good experience and rockstar's ability to craft something of this magnitude, detail and ambition deserves acknowledgement for the incredible feat it is. but as a video game, it's missing a little too much of the fun aspect

I don't have much interest in RDR2 despite RDR being one of my favorite all time games.

Games shouldn't feel like a chore, I have enough of those to do around the house.

Im one of the few who thought RDR2 was a good game, but not great. I put it on par with recent Assasins creed games. The lack of progression is what killed it for me. You're doing the same things in chapter 1 you do in chapter 7.

The story was good but not god-tier like everyone says. Its pretty predictable honestly. I knew right off the bat what was going to happen because the antagonist that betrays you literally always wears red and black like a Sith Lord and looks just like Angel Eyes in The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly.

Because Rockstar is now a brand. That's all the gaming media cares about now. hey won't dare criticize such brands

I didn't mind the shooting mechanics, but like said above, I think the movement speed needed to be increased in general. It did become frustrating towards the end how everything just feels very slow.

I ended up using the fast travel horse carriages 90% of the time at the end of the game because I was tired of it. But still one of the best games I've played this gen.

It's not a bad game at all... It has a ton of system at play and the game is more lumbering... Its slow paced. If that's not your thing it's ok. I went to God of War after rdr2 and I must say though, if gameplay is truly your thing, gow was the game of the year over rdr2 all day.

Yeah I really hope they switch their priorities some, from authenticity to a greater focus om moment to moment fun.

I also think the actual shooting is fine. The weapons feel good and the feedback is great. It's more the overall design of the shootouts and the lack of supporting mechanics (movement, stealth, better melee etc) that I just think make them needlessly repetitive and stale. "90 year old grandpa" is correct about the camp walking :)!

I agree that cover is fundamental and an ok mechanic. But in games like Uncharted, WatchDogs, Vanquish and Tomb Raider I move around a lot more. I'm not saying those games are world class, but they all have more fun TPS combat than RDR2 imo. I'mean you can technically move around but most levels you start behind cover, kill enemies, move forward kill enemies etc. There was very little tactical movement like finding vantage points, flanking, choosing a stealthier route etc.

What do you mean by "you can use stealth with knives... at any given time"? Most of the time the shootouts are completely unavoidable? And in the open world are there any camps that you can take down with stealth only? Maybe there is gameplay of that?

I strongly disagree that you have plenty of creativity. For the most part it's about choosing which weapon to use and in what order to kill the enemies. At best. Many times the order to kill enemies has been decided also.

It’s an RPG. They aren’t designed for fun. They’re designed to make the player take on a roll of a character and lose them self in a world.

Personally, I don’t like RPGs. I find them boring, repetitive, and a waste of time.

@Sushiglutton: While I don't completely agree with all your points, I do agree that the game is not fun.

My main dig is that it's pointless. Hunting, base building, whatever...they can be completely avoided or embraced without any real consequence.

I bought everything for my camp (with no help from the rest of those freeloaders), and still nothing fundamentally changed. I pretty much never hunted, and still was able to walk (slowly) through the game without a problem. So what's the point?

I also can't stand how you have a faux choice of being good or bad, but are consistently forced down the path of outlaw. You get into camp and they're like "don't do anything crazy", and "keep a low profile", but as soon as possible it turns into "let's rob a train and have a shootout in town"!

There's more but I've tried to block it out. As much as I loved the first one, I can't stand this game.

I know I would enjoy it on PC more with M&KB then I did on my PS4 it's a great impressive game but I would not call it fun that's for sure tech wise it's amazing.

@Gamerno6666: soon enough. At least it better come to PC, the train robberies are completely broken.

One thing that wasn't fun is getting a bounty on you if someone just attacks you.

People mention input lag but I had no issues with that.

It's a casual game for casuals. Your expectations were too high.

I use cover only 50-60% of the time. In this case, your playing style is causing your own frustration, OP.

Aren't all video games a waste of time? Unless you think achievements and trophies somehow mean something in the real world.

@heathen75: Depends on what kind of outcome satisfies you with your time. Everything wastes time, of course.

@ezekiel43 Untouchable! nice moves

I think the game has real highs and lows. Once you finished a mission it seems that's like a hard crash back on reality and I essentially have to stop playing for an hour or two.

There are a lot of highly rated games that are simply not fun because people get enjoyment from various things. This is why most reviews and awards are useless evaluation of games. RDR2 seems to appeal to the gamers who are story driven and like the immersion of the world.

Too slow and tedious for me, game is a snooze fest. Don't think I even made it to the ten hour mark and had to put it down out of boredom. Not sure if I will even try again.

Making me go back to and walk through the camp all the time was half the problem, that totally sucked ass.

It was a chore to get through, because it just wasn't fun. It was more like a visual and technical experience where you look around and go "whoa, this looks amazing" and then proceed to bump around on your horse for several dozen hours.

The visuals were great, the characters and story were memorable, and the open world was superbly designed and implemented. Having said that, those things don't always turn in to a fun video game.

And the worst part of the overall product was the mission structure treating you like a robot who couldn't approach them in any way, shape or form that wasn't linear and direct. Get to far away from a mission point, mission over. Try a non-direct path not thought of by a developer, mission over.

The old Rockstar allowed many different paths to success in game missions, so I don't know why they've reduced the players' options to one way to complete them, exactly step for step how developers want you to do it from a to b only.

I really liked RDR2. I think it was a masterpiece but I did notice that things are much faster in the original. I played it after beating 2 to complete chronologically and I swear the horses run twice as fast. I get that it's for the sake of realism but man it is a bit tedious. I still loved it, though. I've beaten it twice and I will play it again. I just have a thing for owning a whole series and playing them in order.

The game was and is highly overrated. Not a horrible game, just nowhere near as good as advertised. No need to even get into the MP.

I haven't played this and based on a lot of the reactions I've seen, I'm not sure I will. Even those of you who seemed to have enjoyed the game are a bit muted in your praise of it.

Still there best game. Keep your horse balls.

No. its this. its their best game by far.

Time moves forward, nothing change.

Dialogues are incredible quality and art of writing.

As much as I like Max Payne 3, it has flaws. Scripted shit and some stuff they basically tried to template from GTA that just didn't work here.

Vice City is basically a flawless game with a vision perfectly realized. And, compared to the auto-lock shit on console, the mouse and keyboard PC version is a lot better gameplay-wise. It's basically the quintessential love letter to the 80's pop culture, we have alot of imitators since, but none really touch Vice City.

Importantly as well, it's a game trying to emulate movies, not forgetting that's it's a game like alot of the disgusting garbo nowadays.

It also built on top of III's fundations without suffering the massive bloat life simulator of San Andreas, Vice City, III and Chinatown are tightly paced games. Far cry from (hu hu) from Ubisoft's open-world slop shat out.

Max Payne 3 gameplay mechanics are simply 10/10. amazing. while GTA vice city gameplay mechanics are abysmal from shooting (you cant walk while shoot? lol) to driving. its only got praised because it was one of the first open world game i guess or back than open world games were not common. if it release today. it would have got hated.

Vice city like every GTA game was also trash. I remember lot of kids used to of playing vice city just to roam around the city instead of completing mission. RDR1 was also better than GTA so i assume RDR2 is also better than any GTA too mainly for western setting.

Mafia 1 was real mature sandbox/linear crime drama set in city. it was the game that crap all over GTA from mature and best story telling in video gaming to excellent gameplay to amazing atmosphere. that game was a masterpiece.

Probably to cater more to the casuals. Pretty smart business move that'll get them more sales. That's how it goes, the more mainstream Rockstar gets, the worse their games will be.

you should try max payne 3 my friend. it was pretty challenging game. after that they stop making good games and its been like 6 years or so. GTA 5 was terrible terrible game.

Well I just might. I regret not playing the earlier ones though. It's 19.99 on Steam right now. I can snag it when it hits 10 bucks or so.

And yes, GTA is boring, tedious, clunky poop. I want a new top down one à la Chinatown Wars.

i guess your biggest loss than. Max Payne 1 was a masterpiece. that along with Mafia 1 were 2 of greatest third person games of all time.

I think you should tried with original. its still age excellent, then 2 and finally 3. 2 is my least fav but still its good. but original is masterpiece and 10/10 game.

No doubt a great and I mean Great game but yeah, RDR was a whole lot more when it comes to..... Great fun. :(

Look the world design and its interactions are quite groundbreaking. I would actually like that stuff implemented into these new open world games. The state of npc interaction is ambitious and its an achievement. A level up from dialogue wheel npc interaction that has become the standard of these open world games. So yeah I'm a type of gamer that does appreciate the creativity in that even if they may be boring to some. After all part of these games is still chasing down the immersion illusion (f*** i hope i'm making sense lol). The issue is the part that your suppose to go through to beat the game is linear. Its restrictive and the combat is shit. Its not even as expressive as the linear games like UC for **** sake. Try to mess around and enjoy and the games tells you you cannot do that. And yes the controls are shit sluggish to the point of why gamers complain about Google Stadia. To summarize its a ground breaking shitty game I guess.

I hate the ui design too, feels very archaic

Dunno if that's why they're doing it, because Ubisoft now does the exact opposite: newer AC games allow all the freedom in the world to complete missions, and older games in the series before Origins and Odyssey used to be just like the new Rockstar games, failing missions for any straying from the linear path.

Weird...

that's a good point. i really liked max payne 3 but vice city is a hall of famer

because you cant play it right now,even you installed epic & RTX 2080TI ,9900K rig.

You forgot to talk about the $10k price tag.

fess up, you made this stupid comment just to get responses, well colour me baited.

Things I just learnt, games like Grand Theft Auto are "RPGs" now.... anything remotely immersive is an RPG now.

my god.

hope its bait.

Your points are fair and valid IMO... nbut also exaggerated.

You forgot to mention how everything you do in the game ends up being pointless with no payoff. Even the unlockable inventory upgrades you get by hunting animals are completely trivial since you can buy them all for super cheap later on, Everything you do for the camp is totally meaningless, upgrades, cosmetics, quests, everything is pointless and serves no ultimate purpose. Don't get me wrong, i enjoyed the game. but i will never replay it, there's no reason to do so, the story/narrative is the only enganging feature of the game and i already experienced it.

Its a story/narrative focused game with the illusion of being something else.